Duh? Atheism List?
The Pinoy atheists are in a cunundrum. A poll was conducted to determine if the atheism list should rid itself of a believer who has made it a point to make it his turf and think it’s his right to defend his belief when it’s being attacked by atheists. Does that make sense? But it seems it does to some atheists if we are to take the result of the poll as an indication.
It’s only in Pinoy atheists where a Christian runs amuck and atheists think that such behavior is necessary for the health of the discussion, or to serve as a reminder of how far stupidity can go. The same nutcase claimed that “god is energy” and the resident irreligious members think that they are learning from such claims. It’s also in Pinoy atheists where posts by believers - believer really, since there is only one very active nutcase - is a good percentage of messages. It’s only in Pinoy atheists where you can see that believers complain about being provoked by atheists (duh? as expected since atheists are irreligious) and getting sympathies from the atheists! On first glance, an atheist who is willing to join might mistake the list as an INC-ADD debate list and turn away. No end to be in sight, the debate has caused undue distress to some of the early members who never intended the list to degenarate into its current state where discussions have been hijacked from being mostly secular to just about anything nonsense and a long parade of name calling. If there are topics that the non-believers try to bring up for secular discussion, they are quickly lost in the longest raging debate that should have been moot and academic in an atheism list.
Popularity: 19% [?]
March 26th, 2006 at 1:09 pm
I am appalled. The atheists at PA have shown themselves to be quite spineless. At the very least, they should encourage him to leave, not stay and sprout his unwarranted nonsense.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
Let them decide.
March 26th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
The justifications for letting eternal stay in PA can be summed up in the following:
1) Atheists as freethinkers ought not censor dissent lest they become like their enemies.
2) An atheist mailing list would be boring if there would not be a foil to the atheists’ side.
3) The best way to show the weakness of religion is to let the nuisance theists make fools of themselves with nonsensical arguments.
Whether these reasons should suffice in allowing eternal to run amuck in PA, depends ultimately on what PA is supposed to be. Is PA a debate mailing list? If so, then eternal ought to be welcomed for his contributions to the debate. Is PA an atheist support group, where people of like minds can reach out and feel at home with their non-religious kabayans? If so, then trolls like eternal have no business preaching and spreading their filth in the group. Is PA an interfaith dialogue group, where both theists and atheists can converse and learn each others’ beliefs in a mutually beneficial manner? If so, then not only is eternal not welcome, but so are some of the atheists debaters there as well!
I am not an active member of PA, and I really don’t know what the group hopes to achieve, but if anything, I would prefer it to be a “support” group. There are already countless groups, BBS websites and usenet groups that cater to debaters, apologists and counter-apologists. The PA would not even make a blip in the theist-v-atheist radar. We are just too small and region-specific. If there is a market for a Filipino-based debate group, it would have to be in Tagalog (or perhaps even some of the other major local languages). If we want to debate in english, then let us join the english groups and websites.
I also don’t really care for interfaith groups. I have been to one, and while they try to be even-handed, most members would “circle the wagons” and “Balkanize” once an outsider criticizes a certain denomination’s beliefs or doctrines. Interfaith group just won’t work, much so if it involves diametrically opposing worldviews like christianity and secular humanism.
Which leaves us with a “support” group. Will an all-atheist group work? Of course it can. Just look at the vibrancy of such online atheist communities like Freethought Forum (http://www.freethought-forum.com/), which does not allow theists; and the Internet Infidels Discussion Forum (http://www.iidb.org/), which has a section dedicated to secularists to mingle around. I believe PA would do a major service to the local atheists by being a support group. We live in the most religious country in Asia, perhaps even the Christian world. Most of us are still in the closet, not confiding our nonbelief to even our closest friends and relatives. Indeed, the isolation and marginalization of atheists in our country are the main reasons for some of our members to look online for fellow nonbelievers. As a lonesome atheists, I have joined countless forums and online groups in search for cyber respite to the religious drivel that permeate my real life situation.
So, what is the vision of PA, the mailing list? Are we “equipping christians” redux? Or should we seriously consider being an exclusive group of nontheists, an online home where we are not condemned for our apostasy? We cannot be both, and by trying to do so, we are already alienating some of our atheist members (who joined PA precisely because they are already alienated in their real-world lives in the first place).
P.S.
For theists who want to argue, they are free to join other groups that cater to their delusions. I have no doubt eternal would be shred to bits in IIDB’s Science and Skepticism subforum if he ever tries to peddle his nonsense there, especially since that board has several physics Ph.D’s running around.
March 26th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
I could not have put it any better. PA should be a “refuge” for the irreligious away from the madding “religious crowd.” If we let believers run the show, I might as well leave the group altogether as it’s not any better than nor different from the others. I don’t see any value in having religious zealots in an atheism list. Neither is PA a debating list. There are already countless other forums created specifically for religious debates. I would rather have PA be a community for atheists and other irreligious Pinoys to “socialize” or discuss matters in a secular way, which is what is sorely missing in the current internet landscape.
March 26th, 2006 at 6:43 pm
Indeed.
It is better that the likes of Eternal Bullshit should leave.
Having Christians in Atheist rooms is not a bad idea, provided, of course, they understand the topics that are discussed. More often than not, they get offended when atheists make fun of their deities and their religious doctrines. And when their apologetic reasonings fail to debunk atheist arguments, they go into “vegetable” mode, i.e The he he hes and the ha ha has. From then on, everything goes downhill, no reasonable discussions, nothing fruitful.
Can we learn anything from Eternal Bullshit? No. Is he irritating? yes. Should he leave? Definitely.
March 26th, 2006 at 9:26 pm
It used to be a good list. From time to time Christians would pop up and argue but usually they’d leave and the topics would go back to same theme - topics discussed without bible verses and gods. Maybe it’s really difficult now to bring back the same atmosphere. The theists who are left behind are those who understand what the list is all about. We always said, theists are welcome if they are there to learn and understand what atheism is all about but never to have religious debate. I always reminded them to move the debates outside the list and it always worked. Now comes those who are “dense” - that’s the right word - and suddenly the list is upside down because the topics have become mixed with “equipping christian” replies.
March 26th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
And when we try to boot them out, they play the “oppressed believer” card. Typical christian persecution complex, and it seems they’re successfully using it to get some atheists’ sympathies. We shouldn’t let them get away with it. They are free to go elsewhere, there are dozens of lists and websites that cater to apologetics/counter-apologetics. But for us who want to have a local atheist group, where do we go when we’re driven from the group? Back to the closet?
It is indeed very sad when our group cares more about accomodating the token apologist than the legitimate needs of its members.
March 27th, 2006 at 1:04 am
If the situation is not remedied, I recommend issuing an ultimatium to the moderators: Either the idiot goes out, or Tony take the lead and form a new Pinoy Atheist group.
Clear sets of guidelines will be set: No christians, or at least no fundies. No bullshit, pseudo madness.
March 27th, 2006 at 1:42 am
I wouldn’t go as far as creating yet another list. I will just make sure Eternal’s stay in the current PA will be worse than hell he now so imagines since there is no real hell after death.
Come to think of it, we can just use this space to discuss things, right?
March 28th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Period.
July 8th, 2006 at 12:16 pm
Hi.
I just wanted to correct a misperception here. Freethought Forum ( http://www.freethought-forum.com/ ) does not discriminate against theists. We have quite a few theists on the board, and for the most part the theists and atheists get along just fine. You’re welcome to come check it out if you like.
Regards,
pepperspray.
July 11th, 2006 at 10:16 pm
Hi, thanks for dropping by. There has been not much activity in here. I think time to do some writing.